HarleyTechTalk

Quote from: rbabos on February 26, 2015, 06:22:06 AM

Quote from: WhipLash96 on February 26, 2015, 05:54:20 AM
A buddy of mine has said many times that he thinks that the comp issues are directly linked to riding style. In specific lugging. Thoughts?

Yes. The more the comp moves the more it will wear without decent lubing.  Using a gear a bit tall will cause more movement within the comp. I wouldn't call it lugging since the engine never really complains and is willing to accel readily.  Most riders operate the HD in that area due to it's huge amount of torque available to deal with load from a gear higher then it should be.

The above quote from a compensator thread reminded me of a question I have about engine speed.

I just bought a RG (2016 103") and I have no experience with HD engines. (My previous bike was a 2014 Valkyrie.)

At 70MPH in fifth gear the engine is turning 3,200RPM. At that speed it feels perfect. It doesn't feel too "busy" and it has plenty of power for hills and headwinds. Both sixth and fourth gears feel totally inappropriate at 70MPH. (The specs for my engine indicate maximum torque is at 3,250RPM.)

However, I spend the vast majority of my time at 55MPH on two-lane country roads.

At 55MPH in fourth gear the engine is turning 2,950RPM and it feels "busy" but it obviously has plenty of power for hills and headwinds. In fifth gear the engine is turning 2,500RPM and the engine feels "normal" to me. It accelerates smoothly and it doesn't make any weird noises. In sixth gear the engine is turning 2,100RPM and the engine sounds like it is going to fall apart.

I only tried sixth gear once and I knew that was the wrong gear even on a flat road. I have been jumping between fourth and fifth to try to figure out which is best for the engine. I don't know if there is a big difference in fuel economy. I thought fifth would be best but after reading threads about lugging I am not so sure now. On my Valkyrie I just put it in top gear and cruised. My typical rides are 100-225 (solo) miles with 90% or more of that at a steady 55MPH.

I feel like I need a gear in between fourth and fifth? I just want to ride (a lot) without hurting my engine and without shifting all of the time. (I'm not lazy!)

So which gear should I be in at 55MPH? (The owner's manual says sixth!)

Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for any help!

i don't know too many people even this long after the 6-speed came out that actually use 6th gear for cruising.  Most use 5th up to about 70 or so then bump up to 6th.  Me personally I find I burn a bit more fuel when I'm farting around with 6th gear.  Just my .02

Lazy ride, flat going, just cruising along at 55 MPH, run in 5th gear. Drop down to 4th if you are passing. 55MPH is to slow for 6th although my 2010 Ultra will do it effortlessly. I will run 6th at 65 MPH.

Same for me on both of the above. My 6th gear is for multi lane, limited access highways.  I rode backroads from Georgia to Sturgis and never hit 6th.  In a hurry to get home, we hit a couple Interstates and I used 6th gear. Mpg dropped a little.

All of the Above....... 

How about some info on the bike?
All Stock?
Pipe change?
air cleaner change?
Any engine mods?
Any tuning?

My dad runs in 6th when he is 55 and I absolutely go apeshit! I hate it when he does that, especially when he feels he needs to pass without down shifting. Poor bike.

Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 18, 2016, 02:01:38 PM
How about some info on the bike?
All Stock?
Pipe change?
air cleaner change?
Any engine mods?
Any tuning?

All stock.

Thanks!

 
"At 55MPH in fourth gear the engine is turning 2,950RPM and it feels "busy" but it obviously has plenty of power for hills and headwinds. In fifth gear the engine is turning 2,500RPM and the engine feels "normal" to me. It accelerates smoothly and it doesn't make any weird noises. In sixth gear the engine is turning 2,100RPM and the engine sounds like it is going to fall apart."

You already had the answer,  while cruising,  never let it get below 2500-2600 RPM with fairly strong pull when accelerating.  Any "bog" should mean a downshift is needed.

Quote from: moscooter on January 18, 2016, 03:28:22 PMYou already had the answer,  while cruising,  never let it get below 2500-2600 RPM with fairly strong pull when accelerating.  Any "bog" should mean a downshift is needed.

That's the part that is messing with me. The pull in fifth doesn't feel "fairly strong" to me. However, I would classify the pull in fourth as "fairly strong". The pull in fifth feels "lazy" to me.

FWIW, I wear ear plugs and a FF helmet so I can't hear the engine.

I'm coming off of a lot of miles on a turbine-smooth six-cylinder Valkyrie so I am lost. (But having fun!)

I have found that using the taller gear at lower speeds (say 5th gear at 55 mph) will use more fuel when trying to keep speed or even gently accelerate. The motor likes to be in its sweet spot, 2800 to 3200 rpm's, cruising and accelerating normally. This on my 103" motor with 6 speed.

I have a 95" motor with a five speed. Because of the build and cam choice, I find using 4th gear at 55 up to 70 mph gets better gas mileage than using 5th gear.

Quote from: Hossamania on January 18, 2016, 07:31:53 PM
I have found that using the taller gear at lower speeds (say 5th gear at 55 mph) will use more fuel when trying to keep speed or even gently accelerate. The motor likes to be in its sweet spot, 2800 to 3200 rpm's, cruising and accelerating normally. This on my 103" motor with 6 speed.

I have a 95" motor with a five speed. Because of the build and cam choice, I find using 4th gear at 55 up to 70 mph gets better gas mileage than using 5th gear.

I agree Hoss, less load = happier engine and better efficiency. Put her in the sweet spot.

Quote from: Durwood on January 18, 2016, 07:37:27 PM

Quote from: Hossamania on January 18, 2016, 07:31:53 PM
I have found that using the taller gear at lower speeds (say 5th gear at 55 mph) will use more fuel when trying to keep speed or even gently accelerate. The motor likes to be in its sweet spot, 2800 to 3200 rpm's, cruising and accelerating normally. This on my 103" motor with 6 speed.

I have a 95" motor with a five speed. Because of the build and cam choice, I find using 4th gear at 55 up to 70 mph gets better gas mileage than using 5th gear.

I agree Hoss, less load = happier engine and better efficiency. Put her in the sweet spot.

Unlike Whiplash's dad... And so many others.

Hey XYZZY: In addition to more details on engine, what is the elevation you live at? I am asking because all engines lose power as we  go up in elevation. I live near sea level and have changed cams in my bike so it has more power and torque. It is flat around here and I ride single as my wife rides her own bike. I can cruise around all day in 6th gear at 60 mph and it feels fine. Pulls minor hills or an overpass with no problem. But then again, I have no problem down shifting on a 2 lane road to pass someone either. And I know lots of people will never down shift. Owner's manual says 6th gear from 55 on up but that is marginal to me. Around here lots of roads have a 55 mph speed limit. I always do 60 and ride in 6th. Cops have no problem with that speed here.

Quote from: bigfoot5x on January 19, 2016, 08:02:28 AM
Hey XYZZY: In addition to more details on engine, what is the elevation you live at?

250' ASL

Thanks!

Edit: I have to assume temperature plays a part too. I bought the bike a few weeks ago and so far all of the riding I have done has been below 60F.

Ok, 250' is not much. I have seen a definite change when traveling in mountains, like New Mexico, Colorado or Arizona. Lots of places in those states I do drop down a gear like others mentioned for traveling. Your 55 mph in 5th should be fine. You probably just need to get used to the feel of a new bike. 3200 rpm to me at 70 mph feels buzzy. I'll be in 6th in that situation but I am usually at 75 in areas with a 70 speed limit. I very seldom ride at 55 mph just because of what you said. 6th is too high and 4th is too low for me. I'll do 60 in 6th and feel fine all day long. Guys talk about lugging a lot but to me the bike tells you real quick when lugging. I really don't see it unless close to or below 2000 rpm in any gear. I've had 3 bikes with the 6 speeds. The last one was traded in at 95,000 miles and was still running great. Everybody rides however they want to. As described, my riding works for me and the bikes last with no problems. My cam changes and power boost are always modest so as not to harm reliability. I have over 200,000 miles on 4 Harley's. 95,000 on 1 as mentioned and 72,000 on a 5 speed bike. The only bike I did not like was an 06 Dyna WideGlide. This was the first year with a 6 speed tranny and the 88" engine. It always felt under powered for 6th gear. I traded it away in exactly 1 year with 18,000 miles on it.

You Know?

All this talk  about too High and too Low is Exactly what my BAKER 7 speed gear set will remedy. 

Not in a hurry, drained oils n  just the nuts out off exhaust flanges and loosened the exhaust...  Tomorrow.... and another

I ride the sporty, it needs it, been neglected for a long time... 

7 speed Soon...

signed....BUBBIE

Quote from: BUBBIE on January 19, 2016, 03:37:56 PM
You Know?

All this talk  about too High and too Low is Exactly what my BAKER 7 speed gear set will remedy. 

Not in a hurry, drained oils n  just the nuts out off exhaust flanges and loosened the exhaust...  Tomorrow.... and another

I ride the sporty, it needs it, been neglected for a long time... 

7 speed Soon...

signed....BUBBIE

Hell IM still working on mine also Bubble,but it's colder than a Whtches well you.....
I'm waiting for a new drive belt since I had it all apart....... 

I'm hoping it's as good as they say!!!!!

Everything you hear about the DD7 sounds good. If you were closer Mike I would let you use my heated garage, I wouldn't have to drink beer out there by myself.

Just curious.  I'm one of those "55 all day" guys, and since I have an 88B softail, 5th is my only choice.  Longevity wise, would 5th gear in a 5 gear tranny be a safer bet than 5th in a 6 speed or does it matter?

Quote from: BUBBIE on January 19, 2016, 03:37:56 PM
You Know?

All this talk  about too High and too Low is Exactly what my BAKER 7 speed gear set will remedy. 
7 speed Soon...

signed....BUBBIE

But isn't 7th gear on the Baker still 1:1.  Love the 53 tooth basket and left the rest stock on a 2009 Dyna. It really seems to be the ticket. According to the gear ratio calculator, 1st gear on 53 tooth basket is more wicked than 1st gear on baker 7 using 46 basket. (if I remember correctly)
Guess it all depends on the roads you use most.  I'm a 50/50 mix of city & hyway.

Quote from: ultra200922 on January 19, 2016, 04:25:00 PM
Everything you hear about the DD7 sounds good. If you were closer Mike I would let you use my heated garage, I wouldn't have to drink beer out there by myself.

Well be careful,I do have a pickup........  and if we messed it up we could blame it on the Beer Goggles....... 

We will be fine,my belt should be here this weekend,and than the Bad news for the Group this weekend,We are going our Own way......☹☹☹

Hoople,

The 6th gear Now and the DD7,  7th is the same as 6th... I truly Don't need a Higher gear... Lower Low and closer ratio in the middle...

With the cruse drive 6 in my 103" now, I can cruse well at 62 mph (prefer 65 though) with out lugging,  most anyplace here (4400) and even at Higher altitudes... ? 8,000 feet use 5th a lot more under 70...

A real Beast down at lower altitudes like in Gila Bend/Lake Havasu/Oatman/Laughlin where I ride out to Often.. I do ride Two up and Big T bag plus all the saddlebag normal weight.

Found the ratio's.... I think I'll be like the many that use DD7... 

Stock Ratios
1st - 3.34
2nd - 2.30
3rd - 1.71
4th - 1.41
5th - 1.18
6th - 1.00


DD7 Ratios
1st - 3.76
2nd - 2.75
3rd - 2.06
4th - 1.55
5th - 1.27
6th - 1.10
7th - 1.00

signed....BUBBIE

Quote from: BUBBIE on January 19, 2016, 07:56:13 PM

Found the ratio's.... I think I'll be like the many that use DD7... 

Stock Ratios
1st - 3.34
2nd - 2.30
3rd - 1.71
4th - 1.41
5th - 1.18
6th - 1.00


DD7 Ratios
1st - 3.76
2nd - 2.75
3rd - 2.06
4th - 1.55
5th - 1.27
6th - 1.10
7th - 1.00

signed....BUBBIE

BUBBIE,,   10/4.  Thanks for the ratio data!..       Hoople   

You would see a big difference in motor performance if it had a proper tune in it, imo. HD run these things extremely lean to pass emissions, and not what is actually required for an"air cooled"motor. Drivability, performance and mileage can all be improved by a real dyno tune by a pro, even without changing anything on the bike. Exhaust changes can enhance that even more.
HD chose, imo to gear all the new bikes very tall, again for emissions, hoping their "bus" cams and slightly larger displacement would make up the difference. IMO they are still geared too tall, esp for the 103's.
The original FLH's had 3.37/1 gearing on a 5 speed, top gear was 1/1, while others had 3.15/1. The new bikes are like 2.97/1 (I think) while top gear is still 1/1. Along with the weight increases of the new bikes, its a recipe for lugging, easily fixed with either a 30 tooth drive sprocket or the new 32 tooth comp sprocket from Primo. jm2cw  Buffalo